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There are a lot of *amazing* as well as horrifying posts in the blogosphere right now, in response to, or in this case re-brought up, the exclusion of trans women at a Lilith ritual at Pantheacon this year (Patheacon is awesome!). The communication problem (not advertised correctly) has been apologized for, etc etc.

But this post says it so well; I think Lilith would be pleased*: the seam of skin and scales. It's from 2007. 

*It's not my place to tell others what to believe/how to express their spirituality, but I delight in broadening the view. Nasty witch boy me!

Date: 2011-03-08 02:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trinsf.livejournal.com
So today I'm thinking about the "gendered spirit", which is one of the ideas that has been part of the Pcon discussion. It seemsl like some of the debate has involved this idea that there is a gendered spirit, or that the location of gender determines the speakers position on TG folks in gendered ritual.

So, do you think that spirits or souls are gendered? What do you think of the idea of locating "spiritual gender" as a ritual gatekeeping device?

Date: 2011-03-08 03:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lobolance.livejournal.com
No, I don't think spirits or souls are gendered, at least in the larger sense of the word(s). If we go with the reincarnation model, I'm sure we incarnate as both genders.

As important as the body is (all spiritual experiences of course come through the body), I don't think the sex of it is anywhere near the top of the definition of human. Our society is so freaking gendered right now, I think anyone who doesn't fit the Man/Woman role to a t feels they're not really that gender, and that can be framed as a 'soul' issue.

Besides, do we need an 'excuse?' To say I am 'spiritually man' or 'woman' doesn't seem any more useful to me than words like 'really.' And I can see a case being made for the reality that we all have masculine and feminine characteristics, so I might attend a women's ritual if I were a feminine frame of mind. (ok, for me personally, that's not too likely, but for people who are less or differently gendered, I can imagine it working).

I rather like the idea that we express gender, including up to physical change, the same way we express any other personality trait, including the color we paint our toenails. :-) There's a lot to think about. I think having big rituals with any form of exclusivity to its participants is going to be challenging. Private it's easy to control the vibe, so to speak. Looking for any definition to impose on others is fairly hopeless, as far as I can tell. Which is only reasonable! lol

Date: 2011-03-08 09:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] psybelle.livejournal.com
I've had interesting discussions on gender with a handful of folks, both cis and trans...

Gender definitely doesn't reside in the body; the body is a way of expressing gender(s) (I'm definitely in favor of non-polar non-binary continua with more than one axis, sory if that seems redundant as this is pre-coffee for me); if, as you say, we are incarnated multiple times with different genitals, then gender is not a part of the *core* identity - I'm curious as to whether you have any theories on where gendering does reside?

(And, yes, I'm one of those folks who refuses to fit in the neat little pink&blue boxes... I get mistaken for male intermittently and am amunsed every time.)

Date: 2011-03-08 05:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bridgeweaver.livejournal.com
First of all, thank you thank you thank you for showing me just how little I really know. That piece was amazing and thank you for showing it to me.

I have been frequently impressed in the last couple of weeks as the Pcon debate has played out about how little I really know. I know what my heart tells me, but the experiences I am reading/hearing about are fundamentally assaulting my assumptions re: gender that I have believed were very inclusive and not subject to the traps of "normative" society. If nothing else comes out of the Pcon mess, maybe it will at least cause a few of us, sure in our self-definitions of openness and compassion to confront the true otherness of an experience we don't share. I think that's always a good thing.


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